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04-08-2015, 06:47 AM
#1
Healy
Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,585
8D
To build a better battle system
So I'm trying to build a combat system in Twine. If you've never heard of it before, it's the system that games like Horse Master and the uncle who works for nintendo were made in. Anyway, I don't want to make it an RPG affair, so I'm trying to figure out a way to create a puzzly combat system. So far I've looked at Slap That Fish, which I hated, but I think it gave me a good idea of what I want to avoid, so hey! I'm gonna look into some other IF-puzzly combat games, but I'd also like any ideas you guys would be able to spitball at me. So, anybody got any ideas for a combat system that's more of a puzzle? It's still pretty early yet, so anything you guys got would be a big help: half-formed ideas, full-formed ideas, quarterformed ideas... The only caveats I have are that any ideas have to be turn-based (Twine can handle real-time events with a script, but I'd rather not start with this project) and they have to use textual commands (I doubt that's gonna be a problem; we've all played Dragon Quest, right?). So, leave 'em here if you got 'em! Image
04-08-2015, 07:10 AM
#2
Traumadore
Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Twin Cities Posts: 8,161
An Animal of Joy
There are lots of cyoa books with combat systems. You could have specific items exploit a weakness, or if you didn't get the right item or realize its use yet, just try your luck attacking. Also every battle shouldn't be "to the death" in a narrative game. You might lose some health and get robbed, or you might cause an enemy to flee, and then be faced with the decision to pursue or not. If attacking is just a random dice roll, you don't want to have it drag on too long. Some kind of card battle might be cool, where the various items and skills you pick up are added to a deck that you build throughout the game. CCGs and deck building games can get very puzzly.
04-08-2015, 07:11 AM
#3
Sprite Crazy Old Bird
Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: New York Posts: 18,623
It sounds like you want a puzzle system that reads like combat. Maybe something like the insult sword-fighting in Monkey Island?
04-08-2015, 11:11 AM
#4
Mogri Yes, let's feast!
Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15,242
What kind of game are you building this around? Does the player have persistent skills or inventory, like a gamebook? If so, they should factor into the combat somehow. Does the game have a limited number of encounters? If so, you can heavily tailor the flow of combat to the encounter, making it more CYOA than RPG. If neither of those is true, then you probably want something puzzly. What about something combo-based, where this round's command determines which commands are available next round? Think Zell's limit break, but with more nuance -- maybe delivering a power attack removes your ability to perform defensive moves next round, for example. Even if you have a large number of enemies, you should still put some scripting around enemy behavior so that fighting an ogre feels different from fighting a pack of wolves.
04-08-2015, 06:48 PM
#5
Torzelbaum ????? LV 13 HP 292/
Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 11,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogri What about something combo-based, where this round's command determines which commands are available next round? Think Zell's limit break, but with more nuance -- maybe delivering a power attack removes your ability to perform defensive moves next round, for example. This concept vaguely reminds me of Chrono Cross' battle system.
04-08-2015, 07:17 PM
#6 Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 3,199
breakman do-do-doo do-doo
I have an idea once that I thought about using for an RPGMaker game, before deciding it wouldn't work so well for that. The theme of it was sort of like Monster Hunter - you have one character, with a few different weapons, and some various tools and supplies (in limited quantities). When you find a monster, you would have to choose what item you want to use based on the monster's description, then based on the results of that, try to figure out how best to defeat it with what you have. You could maybe also choose to watch the monster, so you get a more detailed description (at the risk of being attacked first).
04-08-2015, 07:31 PM
dosboot Senior Member
#7 Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,307
I would employ textual commands to modify a traditional Dragon Quest style RPG to give the player unique ways to kill enemies that is more efficient than the standard methods. The player would always have generic attack commands, spells, items etc and winning battles that way would always be viable. But through experimentation and feedback the player learns that for each monster there are hidden commands that work too. Imagine poking the eye of a cyclops or standing in the blind spot of a giant as being secret commands. When you discover them, it is sort of like discovering an elemental weakness. I thought about how you might balance the game so it doesn't feel stupid to fight enemies after you know the commands that trivialize them. If that is a problem, you could have the game keep track of how clever the player has gotten against each enemy. If the game detects the player has developed (and is consistently using) a trivial sequence for killing skeletons in the current zone, then perhaps the player gets further rewarded by permanently eliminating random skeleton enemies in that zone. As an aside, permanently removing random encounters in response to player power progression is a very interesting mechanic and an elegant way to push the player forward (i.e., when they shouldn't be grinding against weak enemies anymore). Having a permanent effect on the world feels like an accomplishment whereas getting diminishing returns on XP feels like a punishment. It also feels analogous to opening a shortcut in metroidvanias, since if you manage eliminate all the enemies it makes backtracking through that zone easier. There are lots of in fiction ways to present it: you could give the player a message that they eradicated the local tribe, or you could unlock a quest to fight a special tribe leader whose death results in the removal of that enemy. You more often see this idea presented in RPGs as the enemies running away in fear from the player or being auto-defeated. Last edited by dosboot; 04-08-2015 at 07:45 PM.
04-08-2015, 10:51 PM
#8
Healy
Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,585
8D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogri What kind of game are you building this around? Does the player have persistent skills or inventory, like a gamebook? If so, they should factor into the combat somehow. Does the game have a limited number of encounters? If so, you can heavily tailor the flow of combat to the encounter, making it more CYOA than RPG. Sorry, I probably should have made this known earlier. It's a fighting tournament, basically, with semi-wacky superpowers. There's no persistent inventory or skills, although there may be some items used. There's only 5-6 opponents, depending on how I do things, and no EXP. I've been thinking about just making each fight an unrelated puzzle, but there's a deep satisfaction with solving a game that has a consistent model for puzzles; like, take Suveh Nux, although there's no combat in that.
04-09-2015, 12:30 AM
Snop Junior Member
#9 Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 13
Gun Mute was a series of shoot-outs with environmental puzzles and was deeply satisfying because the solution was always your gun. To make that more rpg-ish... I guess give everyone's superpower a theme? Fire, lazers, spikes, etc. You and them would square off and go between trying for clear shots and messing with the (simplistic) environment. Status effects could limit the choices they made. Or is this too roundabout?
04-09-2015, 09:44 AM
Mogri Yes, let's feast!
#10 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Healy Sorry, I probably should have made this known earlier. It's a fighting tournament, basically, with semi-wacky superpowers. There's no persistent inventory or skills, although there may be some items used. There's only 5-6 opponents, depending on how I do things, and no EXP. I've been thinking about just making each fight an unrelated puzzle, but there's a deep satisfaction with solving a game that has a consistent model for puzzles; like, take Suveh Nux, although there's no combat in that. You might consider a Mega Man approach to it, then -- let the player choose the order of the first 4-5 opponents, gaining a special ability from each. Live-A-Live's wrestling chapter did this, with the added catch that you needed to see the enemy use the special move if you wanted to learn all of them. (IIRC, you got one for winning, but you needed to observe the other one for each opponent.) That works whether or not you let the player choose the order, of course. But if you're doing a tournament arc, you may be interested in my idea for a Dragon Ball Z battle system, with the following battle commands: Charge allows you to charge up your attack. You have to do this for at least two episodes if you want to be effective. Grunt increases your focus and should be used after every third Charge or so in order to maximize the effectiveness of your charging. Transform lets you make your hair longer, yellower, and spikier. It doesn't do a lot on its own, but if your opponent has transformed more times than you have, then you can't win. Attack is totally ineffective unless you've charged like a bajillion times.
04-09-2015, 10:37 AM
#11
Büge Safe Space
Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: TO, ON, CA Posts: 15,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogri Charge allows you to charge up your attack. You have to do this for at least two episodes if you want to be effective. Grunt increases your focus and should be used after every third Charge or so in order to maximize the effectiveness of your charging. Transform lets you make your hair longer, yellower, and spikier. It doesn't do a lot on its own, but if your opponent has transformed more times than you have, then you can't win. Attack is totally ineffective unless you've charged like a bajillion times.
What does Scream do?
04-09-2015, 10:50 AM
Mogri Yes, let's feast!
#12 Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 15,242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Büge What does Scream do? Once you get to higher charge levels, it's necessary to Scream to prevent your charge from bleeding out, kind of like the stagger gauge in FFXIII. You can also invoke Scream when your opponent uses Transform in order to shout things like, "That's not possible!" Doing this combines the benefits of Grunt and Scream, which means that using Transform unnecessarily can give your opponent an edge. It's a very nuanced battle system, see.
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